gujarati world

concreatization is evil but still inevitable in current time. Attempt should be made to maintain balance between development and environmnet. At the same time every development scheme should not face the protest without seeing its merits.

i am afraid i am taking your precious space,
but i can't help reproducing Kohn's utterings, even though they are quoted here in the context
of my personal experience :

'public space is space of democracy'
and denial of entry to public places like kankaria lake to the common man is
'social and economical apartheid'

yesterday we were going to Anand on a mobike to take interview of the celebrated dalit writer Joseph Macwan, we were stopped at the Express Way tolltax. they wanted to fine us for the violation of the rule that no two-wheeler can ply on this elite road.

we were shocked, since we could never believe this kind of apartheid is legalised by our country that calls itself a 'great democracy' !


neerav patel
september 13, 2009

Do not get mesmerized by these so called great white men (Kahn, Corbusier & even Attenborough). They exploited Nehru's (genuine) passion of creating India's image of modern nation post independence. In case of the architects, some of their architectural designs were straight lifts from their own projects rejected by their European clients. Imagine designs meant for ‘cold & closed’ Europe implemented (or rather imposed upon) in ‘warm and open’ India. Even Richard Attenborough had no credential whatsoever in cinema when he first met Nehru in the 50’s. He was just a theatre actor in London.

Neeravji,
I differ with you and wish to put forth here an understanding of mine.

Express or speedways are designed for some higher uninterrupted speedy travel only so, as per my knowledge no country allows two-wheelers on such express type roads (correct me if you have other info)and moreover, this is only for the safety of two-wheeler riders only and that is why, I think you are tresspasing to term it as legalised apartheid!!

Mr. Neerav,

It is about a slow moving two wheeler on an expressway, which is a traffic safety issue.

It is NOT about a poor "dalit" riding a two wheeler (and going for a "dalit" interview) who was not allowed on an "elite road".

my dear friends ENVY and JAYUL,

do you mean to say Expressways / Speedways in our country can not have a separate/additional lane for commonman's vehicle called 2-wheeler just because no country has this facility?

do you mean to say commonman is by nature sluggish and has no need to speed up and reach his destination fast and in time just because you think only 'elite' understands value of time?

your misreading my comment only exhibits your caste prejudice, for nowhere i have claimed that 'a poor dalit' biker should be granted access to a public facility. i claim it for the commonman who has equal right to access the resources and infrastructure of the country.

yes, you may charge reasonable fees as you charge others and also prescribe maximum speedlimit for safety purpose, but you can not deprive the commonman of his rightful share - he is very much indian citizen. he is entitled to equal opportunity as per our constitution.

what a pity, the men who care for (kankaria) trekkers fail to care for the bikers !


neerav patel

sept 17, 2009

lolz...this so - called logic (or absense of it)for blurred vision of 'dalitocarsy' is really an absurd piece of rubbish junk i read in few weeks...ise kehte hai rumal ko kheench ke dhoti kar diya ;) :D

again ROFLOLz =))

બ્લોગમિત્રો તથા દલિતહ્રદયસમ્રાટ શ્રી નીરવભાઈ,

વાત શહેરના પ્લાનિંગની ચાલતી હતી અને એ દરમ્યાન નીરવભાઈને તકલીફ પડી એટલે "ધોરીમાર્ગ"ની વાત વિષયાંતર કરીને વચ્ચે મૂકી. એનો પણ વાંધો નથી પરંતુ એ વાતમાં લોજીક ક્યાં આવ્યું? એક્સપ્રેસ વે સામાન્ય પ્રજા માટે જ બન્યા છે. આણંદ જવા માટે બસ/ટ્રેનનો ઉપયોગ પણ કરી શકાય. નેશનલ હાઈવે પર પણ દ્વિચક્રી વાહન ચલાવવું કેટલું ખતરનાક છે તેનો સહુને ખ્યાલ છે. એક્સપ્રેસ વે પર દ્વિચક્રી ન ચલાવીને તમે જ વધુ સલામત નથી? દ્વિચક્રી વાહનો માટે જુદી લેન કરવામાં આવે તો પણ કેટલા લોકો "લેન ડ્રાઈવિંગ"નું પાલન કરે તે એક પ્રશ્ન છે.

અને જેમ દલિત હોવાની નાનમ ન જ હોવી જોઈએ તે જ રીતે સવર્ણ હોવાની પણ કોઈ નાનમ ન હોવી જોઈએ. આખી ચર્ચામાં "હું બાઈક પર આણંદ ગયો હતો" એમ કહેવાને બદલે "દલિત લેખકનો ઇન્ટર્વ્યુ લેવા બાઈક પર આણંદ ગયો હતો" એવું જાહેર કરવાની શી જરૂર હતી? જોસેફભાઈને "દલિત લેખક" તરીકે ઓળખવા કરતાં "સારા-સંવેદનશીલ" લેખક તરીકે ઓળખાવવાનું શરૂ કરો. ખરેખર તો જોસેફભાઈની ખોટી ઓળખ આપીને નીરવભાઈએ પોતાની "દલિત કાસ્ટ પ્રેજ્યુડિસ" છતી કરી છે. એમની કોઈ પણ વાતનો વિરોધ કરનારને તેઓશ્રી "કાસ્ટ પ્રેજ્યુડિસ"નું લેબલ મારી દેશે. જ્યાં જરૂર હોય ત્યાં જ "દલિત" શબ્દ વાપરશો તો દલિતો પણ આપના આભારી રહેશે.

ઉત્પલ ભટ્ટ

ઉત્પલભાઈ અને જયબાબુ
તમારી બેયની વાત એકદમ સાચી છે. એક્ષપ્રેસ વેના પ્રવેશમાં જ લખ્યું છે કે આ રસ્તા પર ૨ વ્હીલર ચાલવાની મનાઈ!

lalitbhai,

i wouldn't like to further engage in a verbal duel with utpalbhai and jaybabu, for they have already descended to the argument of 'hitting below the belt'.

but i should certainly like to draw an analogy, in case you are prepared to see reason :

you mean to say government administration writing '2-wheelers are prohibited on expressway' is ok and none should draw attention of the discriminatory dictate.

if you apply same logic to the kankaria lake where the administration has written 'entry is charged', the concerned citizens should abide by the dictate and not resort to agitation or take legal resort.

my dear great journalists of our country, you are respected as the watchdog for the commonman's rights! but the reality is that a lot many of them are yet to get sensitised and learn to care about the 'people's right' as against the 'priveleges of the few'.


neerav patel

sept 17, 2009

Neeravji, you have some point for the Kankaria but wholly (true as per me) as I believe we had enough free checks in our country which has made people just dumb,inactive and non-productive too.
Reg notice for Exp-way, I think you come to accept it for your own safety, better-I dont see any discrimination in it plus as per option we can travel on it in Govt bus too.
And, people's comment in ans to yours is only to show some points and I do not see any bad thing in it(pl take them constructive,now I think I must have to talk to you when I come there...it will be interesting for me too. We are meeting,Promise :D)

My bad.. I had decided not to comment here but I did...

Everything seems 'below the belt' when you wear the belt on your head!

I promise I won't comment........

lolz spot on jayul +1 :)

n envyji, its abt safty as well as economy of fuel n time, time too. there is science behind it, and nt social discrimination.

I may not agree with Neerav Patel technically but he is very right in saying that there is a clear trend where our common resources become exclusive in the name of better infrastructure and in the name of development of ‘international’ standards. An expressway as a model comes from the US which is completely ‘automobile dependent’ and that to the private cars. It is good that the GSRTC buses are allowed on the expressway but it may not remain a good option as once you are out of the expressway it takes longer than a private car to reach the city center. Expressway is an exclusive model (I think that’s what Neerav said in the first post) but if one runs public transport on it efficiently, it may not be so - this is where I will not agree with him.

Unfortunately, the responses to his first post were not only inappropriate but they brought about the hidden prejudices clearly. Whoever thinks (I don’t know who she/he is) it is an ‘absurd piece of rubbish junk’ must have had own limitations in understanding the ideas shared spaces, democracy, justice and even the theory of absurdity. It often happens with people who are satisfied with being self-centered and over the period of time, they do not ‘see’ a lot of other people and their rights.

Finally, about the ‘great white men’ – It is surely a personal choice not to get mesmorised by these ‘great white men’. Just to put some straight facts, Kahn and Corbusier did not design their Indian buildings the way they have designed them in ‘cold and closed’ climate. These buildings were different and there is lots of literature available on it. Bernard Kohn is just giving his views here about how Ahmedbad has transformed since the 60s and we should learn to 'listen' to him as someone who has seen the city closely for more than 45 years now. It does not make him an inferior observant if he is from outside (white country!) and his observations should not hurt our ‘pride’.

dear rutul,

when u dont know me u cant say what 'must' be my limtations of understanding of democrasy or justice etc, isn't it?


i'v nt commented on neeravbhai, i hav commented on his absolutely laughable commentys. n i still feel it 'WTF' n in democrasy of shared spaces ppl do hav right to laugh, comment n critisize i guess !

lolz :D

Rutul,
Your argument for express-way is totally wrong. e.g.if U R travelling in GSRTC, then getting off at the end of E-way is an option, mind it its not a compuslion!! the bus takes U 2 de main stop whichever road it travels.
Plus, talking of exlusivity- I think U can use same argument for the Rajdhanis,air-flights too! correct me if I quoted wrong.Amen
Narendra

Dear Joyjay,
It is true that I don't know you and your profile doesn't specify anything (not even the gender). And then I see you only laughing at others without putting your arguments forward. How do I take you as a serious reader? Dis-agreements could have been argued out. Only laughing is not criticizing...it is ridiculing someone...especially on this medium where we do not see people but only their text.

Envy - I only meant that a project like expressway reaches out to more people where the public transport and its connectivity is also as efficient. Besides, the criteria of evaluating such a (transport based) project should be how good excess a public mode has compared to a private mode. Rajdhanis and air-flights are not comparable with E-way - they are modes and not public infrastructure - railway tracks/stations (like E-way) do not differentiate between the people who use them. In fact, they give more and more choices to the users.

dear rutul,

i am already putting forward my arguments in various media since years. a senseless, baseless, logicless and absolutely rubbish as well as conveniently prejudiced argument should be laughed at as childish, and not be replied at ! ;)

debate is possible between difference of opinion, not between crystal clear fact and foolishness ...lolz :D (infect, still utpal n envy has done worthy effort to dig a well in desert...kudos to them)

just FYI - there are separate tracks and stations too for something like bullet train.

ya, how do u take me as serious reader?
well, read me regularly besides cyberspace and dont be so serious about it..easy na? ;)

Hi Rutul :)
Thnx 4 reply.
1 UR argument dat other options are as efficient,WRONG-and U too, know it! do not need more clarity,right?
2 UR criteria point is also wrong, both have same priority,access,rules too.
3 Rajdhani-Air flights R not comparable!!!?how?
They eats up COMMON-MAN' (common man is the main argument point for Neeravji)precious space and time too at common man's expense..so!
There has been tons of argument on Rajdhanis and flights which R designed 4 de select few's comforts.
I dont know how often U travel in trains but, Rajdhanis R given priority for tracks and other trains have to wait, from few mnts to sometime n hour too! and, this my dear friend is, partiality and pl remember not apartheid of any kind.
This led so called famous LALU to start Garib-Rath!!, I agree they R very nice trains at n effordable rate for all to use compared to Rajdhanis (U can take case of GO-AIR in same line, for effordable option compared to IA/Jet/Kingfisher)
You said about Rajdhani/flight dat they R modes & not infra...thnx 4 updating my knowledge but i think I ans it point 3.Amen
Sorry Urvish to eat UR space for point which is not the base of UR artcl,hope U will bear :)

Dear Joyjay, I am glad to know that you are writing in media for many years. You look like a big guy. I am not really excited about your 'read me regularly besides cyber space' invite because ‘one is what one is’ both in the real and the virtual world. Is n't it? Thanks anyways!

Envy - Bhai, You are more interested in proving me wrong rather than arguing anything logically neither do your arguments look supported by any readings on public infrastructure. I only said that any infrastructure project should increase the access of people to it and criteria of evaluating any public investments should be how collective interests are taken care of. That’s it! Anyways, I stop these arguments here from my side.

Mr Rutul, I think U have not left any arguments on this subject plus, UR idea of infrastrucute is faulty and biased too..U do not have more insite how infrastructures are being developed in world over and be informed, I am not talking of US or Europe only.
I have no interest to prove anyone wrong cos what fact is remains fact however anyone try to twist it!!
Reg Logic! ok, U have more knowlege than me so be it, I am happy- may be sometime I will something learn from u as learning is my passion and i do not feel shame too...lol!
My arguments comes more from the real life first hand experiences rather than being sobbish book reader and pseudo intellect!! Thanks for the insight anyway.

dear joyjay,

yes, precisely that is the problem you do not want to see :

that there are separate tracks and stations for a bullet train running at thousand km speed for the 'priveleged' few and there is no pedestirans way for the poor millions !

from the very outset my point was only this and i reiterate - that there are no equal opportunities/access in this country : there are lot of priveleges for the elite few and there are no basic rights for the large multitudes.

and if some 'xyz' draws attention on this unjust and unfair play of democracy, the poorman's advocate is ridiculed with choicest epithets -'senseless, baseless,logicless, absolutely rubbish and conviently prejudiced'.

i am not as lucky as you are dear jaybabu. you are a mediaman and have access to all resources of real and virtual world at your command. we are no match for you and you have to always win.

hope your EGO will be satisfied and your sentiments assuaged with this last request : we will put a stop here to meet in another post and till then let us relieve all friends in good humour and not vitiate the blogosphere any further.

neerav patel
sept 20, 2009

rest i had already discussed and laughed at...so this is only to steer clear myth that
'i am not as lucky as you are dear jaybabu. you are a mediaman and have access to all resources of real and virtual world at your command. we are no match for you and you have to always win.'

hoe can anyone without knowing what i had passed through claim that? i dont understand.passing through adversities or defeat doesnt mean to become overtly colorless activist or bitter single-angle unreal anti-something . one can keep balance, fun n reality check intact.


an egoistic person will always be diplomatic or after making a scene stay away from debates where anyone without competency can pool his leg. i dont write like intellectual or poltically correct legal document in comments at any blog...i write in friendly manner...joy+jay. i want to draw attention, if someone dont want to learn- his or her loss...not mine.

infact, that may be your prejudice that from experessway to my transparent laughter remark for silly unscintific twisted truth (?) ..everything u connect with elite ego!

anyways, till person does not clean dust on his own specs, whole world will seem 'hade nigah tak jahan gubar hi gubar hai'

well, i understand there is no point of stretching this on and on as claimers of open thinking dont even want to introspect...so, over and out.

take care.

dear joyjaybabu,

i am shivering...

i'm afraid i will be cursed for my unpardonable sin of disturbing your BIG EGO and will be turned into ashes as did brahmin rishis in the mythological times.

kindly save me, i only punctured your EGO quite unintentionally and not crush it altogether. or else my 21 generations would have suffered genocide as did the angry brahmin parshuram to the kshatriyas.

but i remember my anscesestors' blessings that i shouldn't be afraid of any angry dinosaur. as you are born with power to curse, we are born with the power of rising from our ashes again like phoenix.

take care of your EGO. there could be fire next time, for i would have learned your incinerating vocabulary by that time.

i am now no more shivering. and waiting to...


neerav patel
sept 21, 2009

I support Nirav and Rutul here. Joyjay, Jayul, Envy are typical blog-elites. They have time energy and egos to keep punching their views around, that too in the name of democracy and freedom; like our ruling class in all social sphere. "we don't descreminate, you mentioned it yourself" is their argument always.

Just one advice to them. Take the print-out of your arguments done here to any sociologist or psycologist, He/she will make you understand what we are saying here about you. -Kiran Trivedi

Everybody just continues discussions on and on. It looks like people are shouting at each other or may be looks like one is seated in Parliament!!

No,I am not against it, It is good, needed and essential for democracy but sometimes I feel we Indians argue and discuss to much (in India only!). We put so much our efforts in discussion and stretching the things, charo taraf Shorebakor and Kolahal,

I would be more than happy to know if there are people here who also use 5-10% of their energy(Energy used here in proving their point right)in some constructive work (the work they are arguing for!!).

Otherwise badha pani valovo chho. charcha karo, ego satisfied karo, potane right prove karo, gahre jav,Pan na galle jav, pachhi charcha karo, tv jovo, sui jav.

-Harsh

The article voiced the concern of all climate change warriors. It is not just the urbanisation and capitalism that is responsible for these unfortunate happenings. The new metro project and BRTS has already eaten away a great deal of our common space. The policy makers are least bothered about the inconvenience caused to the common travellers as they always get a priority on the roads. Nice article, as always.